Strange by-product of the current playoff system

[Darth Backer]

I was reflecting today on how many teams may never win another section title until we change the current playoff system. Let's say a team is base D2. Under the current system, any years when you are actually good enough to win the big game, you are going to get moved up to D1. In the years in which you lose enough games to stay down, your team isn't good enough to win the title.

You've got to have enough down years where you get placed incorrectly and then make a run.

Lemoore comes to mind. They had a cluster of bad seasons, were placed in D3 and then the talent pool shot up so they made that run to back-to-back D2 title games.

I know in 2025 it's about to get a little weirder at the top with a second tier of D1 being put into place. The top 8 teams will play for a D1A title and #9-16 will play for D1AA. Not sure that I have the names correct.

[Darth Backer]

[TeddyKGB]

so they are now going to have two D1 titles? that 1-8 9-16 format is reminiscent of the NCAAs and the other basketball tournament

[TeddyKGB]

[Sixtynine]

Whatever we do for playoffs I hope that it's a system where the biggest schools in the area are always placed in D1

It's so embarrassing when any Clovis school, or some of the big Bakersfield schools, willingly accept an invite to a lower division playoff.

I'd put Bullard football in that category when they "won the D2 title" (lol) in 2021

[Sixtynine]

[izne1home]

Agreed. 

[izne1home]

[CWClassof2007]

Whatever we do for playoffs I hope that it's a system where the biggest schools in the area are always placed in D1

It's so embarrassing when any Clovis school, or some of the big Bakersfield schools, willingly accept an invite to a lower division playoff.

I'd put Bullard football in that category when they "won the D2 title" (lol) in 2021

Or when Clovis East & Central baseball played against each other in the D2 championship in 2022. I believe Clovis & Clovis North were also in that bracket.

[CWClassof2007]

[Sixtynine]

Or when Clovis East & Central baseball played against each other in the D2 championship in 2022. I believe Clovis & Clovis North were also in that bracket.

You're correct.

That's embarrassing for all involved who accepted invites

[Sixtynine]

[PipersPit4evr]

Yes its official, we will have Div1A and Div1AA, meaning Div 1 will field 16 teams. I am curious, could someone on here way smarter than me (and with more time) take last years playoff brackets and re-do them with this format? I am curious to see how or if this affects the remaining divisions and if it does, positively or negatively.

[PipersPit4evr]

[TeddyKGB]

Yes its official, we will have Div1A and Div1AA

so the solution was to rename the problem?

[TeddyKGB]

[Darth Backer]

Yes its official, we will have Div1A and Div1AA, meaning Div 1 will field 16 teams. I am curious, could someone on here way smarter than me (and with more time) take last years playoff brackets and re-do them with this format? I am curious to see how or if this affects the remaining divisions and if it does, positively or negatively.

I believe this was part of the discussion when they announced it to the league reps and it had Hanford as the top seed in the D1AA bracket.

[Darth Backer]

[Darth Backer]

Whatever we do for playoffs I hope that it's a system where the biggest schools in the area are always placed in D1

It's so embarrassing when any Clovis school, or some of the big Bakersfield schools, willingly accept an invite to a lower division playoff.

I'd put Bullard football in that category when they "won the D2 title" (lol) in 2021

We've been down this road a million times. No one wants McLane, Roosevelt and Fresno High playing up just because they have over 3,000 students. BIGGER schools is just a silly notion. CN has half the student bodies of those schools but no one in their right mind wants CN playing in D2 and those big enrollment schools playing D1...

McLane has over 3,000 kids with about 800 eligible.

We've got to get rid of the big school small school language. It's just silly in the central valley demographic.

[Darth Backer]

[PipersPit4evr]

We've been down this road a million times. No one wants McLane, Roosevelt and Fresno High playing up just because they have over 3,000 students. BIGGER schools is just a silly notion. CN has half the student bodies of those schools but no one in their right mind wants CN playing in D2 and those big enrollment schools playing D1...

McLane has over 3,000 kids with about 800 eligible.

We've got to get rid of the big school small school language. It's just silly in the central valley demographic.

I actually agree with you on this. There are so many factors in our area. The only ones who disagree are the ones who haven't coached/played anywhere but TRAC schools.

[PipersPit4evr]

[Cristobal]

I believe you will not be able to move down from your base division? If that's correct this may be what we have been looking for.

[Cristobal]

[PipersPit4evr]

I believe you will not be able to move down from your base division? If that's correct this may be what we have been looking for.

Not true. Still one up or down.

[PipersPit4evr]

[Cristobal]

Still no good then, at least they are trying.

[Cristobal]

[PipersPit4evr]

Still no good then, at least they are trying.

Again, I'd like to see last years brackets re-placed with the 16 team D1 before I say it's no good. My gut feeling is it will help the mid level teams stay close to their base division.

[PipersPit4evr]

[hardhitter23]

Same with like Sanger. They have the students to play (number wise) D1 but they dont have the athlete to compete D1 football.

[hardhitter23]

[Underdog]

Again, I'd like to see last years brackets re-placed with the 16 team D1 before I say it's no good. My gut feeling is it will help the mid level teams stay close to their base division.

It seems this new system would have given Hanford and Sanger a real chance to compete for a title last year. Which should have realistically been the Div. 2 Title game.

I assume base divisions will be reset? As it sits schools like Clovis W, Clovis E are base D2.

[Underdog]

[Sixtynine]

We've been down this road a million times. No one wants McLane, Roosevelt and Fresno High playing up just because they have over 3,000 students. BIGGER schools is just a silly notion. CN has half the student bodies of those schools but no one in their right mind wants CN playing in D2 and those big enrollment schools playing D1...

McLane has over 3,000 kids with about 800 eligible.

We've got to get rid of the big school small school language. It's just silly in the central valley demographic.

I probably worded my post wrong. I meant the TRAC schools of the world. I agree I don't want a Buchanan playing Mclane in a playoff game

[Sixtynine]

[HS Harry]

Or when Clovis East & Central baseball played against each other in the D2 championship in 2022. I believe Clovis & Clovis North were also in that bracket.

You're correct.

That's embarrassing for all involved who accepted invites

Not to make any excuses for those schools having down years, but during that season the D1 Baseball Bracket only had (or allowed) an 8 team field.

[HS Harry]

[anthilllegend]

They may as well break each 16 team bracket into two 8 team brackets and hand out 12 Section Championship trophies.  Then, when the whining continues...break the 8 team brackets into 4 team brackets and give out 24 VC trophies.  This whole trend of bitching because "we can not win a trophy"...started with Fresno Unified, when the Clovis schools started to up the athletic ante.
FUSD...saw the work that was being put in, and wanted no part of it.  We've lost the will to rise-up (in this country). FUSD chose to let their schools drift and settle into comfortable levels of existence.  That's how you get a school of 2,000+ students into a D5 athletic level. You just keep lowering the bar...until you are able to jump it...then you feel good about yourself.  Under these new parameters...when a former D1 competitor (ala, Clovis Unified, Central Unified, Bakersfield or Bullard, etc.) play in a traditional D1 conference (all year) and finishes in 5th or 6th place...they have failed to meet the predetermined level of acceptance. That exact same team, that has underperformed, might now move down to lower level, and win a section championship.  Are they really "champions"...because, 3 weeks earlier...they were a complete failure. The Anthill realizes it's just not here in the valley (it's the whole state...hell, it's the whole nation).  Also, Clovis Unified should never play for a D2 title.  They were the initial 'bar raisers"...they built the schematic for elite success. They understand the values of a meritocracy.  The process of "climbing up" to claim something, far out ways the feeling of "falling into" something. Under the current system...we have a lot of "fallers"

The Anthilllegend       

[anthilllegend]

[izne1home]

Not to make any excuses for those schools having down years, but during that season the D1 Baseball Bracket only had (or allowed) an 8 team field.

That is another way of saying only the top 8 finishers make it to the playoffs in D1. The problem only arises when you send out mass invitations and try to figure out the seating chart.   

[izne1home]

[mkb152]

McLane has over 3,000 kids with about 800 eligible.

We've got to get rid of the big school small school language. It's just silly in the central valley demographic.

Maybe to a point.

The problem lies when a school of 3000 gets pushed down to play those with 650 kids it really isn't a level playing field (or vice versa).  There's a point where numbers become a major problem.

Literally every athlete who could help the team in most schools with 500-750 kids is on the team. And that is simply not the case in most big schools.  Dos Palos, Caruthers, Fowler, Woodlake, Liberty (Ranchos), etc. have around 20% of their male population playing football. 

Public schools need a population ceiling they won't go past, and a floor they can't go under.  Private schools should simply be placed in whatever division they belong (usually 1-2, but there exceptions for the really small ones).

[mkb152]

[Darth Backer]

Maybe to a point.

The problem lies when a school of 3000 gets pushed down to play those with 650 kids it really isn't a level playing field (or vice versa).  There's a point where numbers become a major problem.

Literally every athlete who could help the team in most schools with 500-750 kids is on the team. And that is simply not the case in most big schools.  Dos Palos, Caruthers, Fowler, Woodlake, Liberty (Ranchos), etc. have around 20% of their male population playing football. 

Public schools need a population ceiling they won't go past, and a floor they can't go under.  Private schools should simply be placed in whatever division they belong (usually 1-2, but there exceptions for the really small ones).

Good point. Some of the really small schools have closer to 60% of the male population playing.

[Darth Backer]

[o-line]

We've been down this road a million times. No one wants McLane, Roosevelt and Fresno High playing up just because they have over 3,000 students. BIGGER schools is just a silly notion. CN has half the student bodies of those schools but no one in their right mind wants CN playing in D2 and those big enrollment schools playing D1...

McLane has over 3,000 kids with about 800 eligible.

We've got to get rid of the big school small school language. It's just silly in the central valley demographic.

Schools need to learn these kids are student-Athletes first, so they better get busy on their grades because their is no excuse for a school with enrollment over 3000 to be playing any lower than D3 or D4.

[o-line]

[izne1home]

Schools need to learn these kids are student-Athletes first, so they better get busy on their grades because their is no excuse for a school with enrollment over 3000 to be playing any lower than D3 or D4.

I agree, but I'm not sure I would go that low. If a school with D1 enrollment cannot compete at a D3 level, maybe they need to suspend their sports programs and focus on eligibility if they don't like losing.  There's no better motivator than getting hit in the face and embarrassed.  Softening the academics or the competition to give the kids a false sense of accomplishment isn't the answer.

Those kids are only a year, or in some cases, months away from entering the job market. We need to teach them reality-based lessons.  If you jack around at work, they don't soften your job description. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

Schools need to learn these kids are student-Athletes first, so they better get busy on their grades because their is no excuse for a school with enrollment over 3000 to be playing any lower than D3 or D4.

I am not sure we can blame the school, we all know that there are many factors that contribute to academic success one being the socio-economical make up of the school. I agree schools with 3000 kids shouldn't be lower than D3

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

I am not sure we can blame the school, we all know that there are many factors that contribute to academic success one being the socio-economical make up of the school. I agree schools with 3000 kids shouldn't be lower than D3

I get it, but we're not talking about college admissions or scholarships.  We're just talking about remaining eligible in schools that graduate everyone with a pulse.

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

We're just talking about remaining eligible in schools that graduate everyone with a pulse.

Now we're getting back to appearances, izne if anyone understands manipulation of information via statistical data it would be you. Remember, high schools tout a graduation rate but they don't have to show the proficiency in basic math and reading of those graduates.  So kids and their parents can  sit thru the same boring " we struggled together and now face new challenges" speech, take the pictures in the cap & gown and feel good about this "accomplishment" but like the diamonds on your pinky rings izne, its a fugazzi

[TeddyKGB]

[o-line]

I am not sure we can blame the school, we all know that there are many factors that contribute to academic success one being the socio-economical make up of the school. I agree schools with 3000 kids shouldn't be lower than D3

I came from an era of being in migrant farmworker classrooms because my first language was a leaning barrier, but my parents took me out of those classes because they realized you can't succeed in this country if you cannot communicate. During my time at CE we were told if we wanted to play D2 then we could go coach at at a D2 school, oh how have times have changed in the last 10 years. I came from a low income family along with many other teammates our parents didn't make excuses and we still picked on the weekends. During my time coaching at Hoover with Plummer we always played D1 because it was about holding our school to a standard. Now that the standard has been lowered they now play in D5, but the standard was not only lowered on the field but also in the classroom and with discipline on campus which has a huge detrimental effect not only on FUSD campuses but school sites everywhere. They are student athletes first no excuses, if they can't be a student first that's the parents problem at home they need to fix it, only then can schools succeed in athletics and academics. Drive a car until the wheels fall off it's going to be hard to fix.

[o-line]

[MiddleSchoolLegend]

I came from an era of being in migrant farmworker classrooms because my first language was a leaning barrier, but my parents took me out of those classes because they realized you can't succeed in this country if you cannot communicate. During my time at CE we were told if we wanted to play D2 then we could go coach at at a D2 school, oh how have times have changed in the last 10 years. I came from a low income family along with many other teammates our parents didn't make excuses and we still picked on the weekends. During my time coaching at Hoover with Plummer we always played D1 because it was about holding our school to a standard. Now that the standard has been lowered they now play in D5, but the standard was not only lowered on the field but also in the classroom and with discipline on campus which has a huge detrimental effect not only on FUSD campuses but school sites everywhere. They are student athletes first no excuses, if they can't be a student first that's the parents problem at home they need to fix it, only then can schools succeed in athletics and academics. Drive a car until the wheels fall off it's going to be hard to fix.

Hoover needs to regain access to The Hill, among other things. 

[MiddleSchoolLegend]

[TeddyKGB]

I came from an era of being in migrant farmworker classrooms because my first language was a leaning barrier, but my parents took me out of those classes because they realized you can't succeed in this country if you cannot communicate.

This is 1st generation immigrant thinking, The Italians, Irish, Jews, Eastern Europeans they all made their children learn English. My first language was also spanish but I was not placed in ESL classes, my mother was of the sink or swim mentality. Its the 2nd generation that wants to make it "easier" for the 3rd generation.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

Drive a car until the wheels fall off it's going to be hard to fix.

Great analogy.

[izne1home]

[izne1home]

Now we're getting back to appearances, izne if anyone understands manipulation of information via statistical data it would be you. Remember, high schools tout a graduation rate but they don't have to show the proficiency in basic math and reading of those graduates.  So kids and their parents can  sit thru the same boring " we struggled together and now face new challenges" speech, take the pictures in the cap & gown and feel good about this "accomplishment" but like the diamonds on your pinky rings izne, its a fugazzi

I thought we were talking about D1 population schools having to play down a few divisions due to a lack of eligibility. "Sure, we have 2000 boys in our school, but only 400 of them are eligible to participate in extracurricular activities, so we are really a D4 school."

In today's educational environment, you'd really have to try hard to become academically ineligible.  It's almost impossible.

I've always been a cubic zerconia guy.

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

Why would we expect schools to be any different that society, if you want to find an excuse you will.

Here's something to consider, the public education system was designed to produce factory workers, if in the US we are now moving away from making goods and out sourcing it to countries like China and Mexico why are we surprised that public schools are now producing dependents of the state as that is now becoming a major source of our economy.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

Why would we expect schools to be any different that society, if you want to find an excuse you will.

Here's something to consider, the public education system was designed to produce factory workers, if in the US we are now moving away from making goods and out sourcing it to countries like China and Mexico why are we surprised that public schools are now producing dependents of the state as that is now becoming a major source of our economy.

Most of today's student wouldn't qualify to work in factories.  You need to be able to read the Safety Posters and have the work ethic to show up on time every day.  There goes at least half of them.

But back to the question about D1 schools having to play down due to the number of potential student-athletes who fail as students and become ineligible.  How does that happen if teachers are giving out C's to functional idiots? 

For example, McLane has 3,000 students with 800 eligible, which means that 73% are ineligible. That's amazing.  Are the standards for extracurricular activity higher than the graduation standards, because McLane's graduation rate is 89%?

Doesn't add up.

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

my guess is that the 62% gap between in ineligible and graduation is made up by one or a combo of a couple of ways:
-make up credits by way of classes that are basically pass fail.
-kids are removed from Mclane to a continuation school thus showing a higher percentage of graduation rate


There is no doubt that most high school graduates are ill equipped to work in factories, that is why the work is being out sourced to Mexico.

[TeddyKGB]

[o-line]

my guess is that the 62% gap between in ineligible and graduation is made up by one or a combo of a couple of ways:
-make up credits by way of classes that are basically pass fail.
-kids are removed from Mclane to a continuation school thus showing a higher percentage of graduation rate


There is no doubt that most high school graduates are ill equipped to work in factories, that is why the work is being out sourced to Mexico.

Oh you don't have to go to another school site to make up classes heck you can make up a whole semester in a matter of days in workability classes. Fail the whole first semester make it up during Xmas break, don't want to do that heck fail the whole year make all 60 credits up in summer school in a few weeks. Kids know they don't have to pass their classes now they can take workability classes and make up credits with packet work each week, so their is no incentive to remain eligible during the school year when you can go to school be disrespectful to your teachers, enjoy hours of tax payer free socializing with your friends, and spend the day making Tik Tok videos. If a kid can't graduate with todays standards set so low they need to be shipped off to an island. Being eligible is a complete different story though as they need some sort of discipline and consistency and God forbid parents actually have to do their part at home you know building kids with strong character, trustworthy, and integrity. Maybe let schools (notice I said LET) have wood shop, metal shop, and auto shop classes, because it was parents in the first place that had those classes removed to add more academic classes. Hey what do I know only been in the classroom for 32 years parents seem to know so much more than those of us in the classroom, maybe they should let me tell them how to do their jobs at home, oh wait we can't do things like that because who are we to tell a parent how to raise their child.

[o-line]

[Bud Kilmer]

Central Coast Section just approved a new playoff format for football this fall. According to the reporter on twitter, D1 and D2 will consist of "A" leagues, with D3 and D4 being a combination of "A" and "B" league programs. D5 will only be "B" and "C" league schools.

Now I know this format can be knit picked, and who is A, B, C ect. can still be subjective, but if it shows success, I think we may see this trickle down to the Central Section.

I think for this to work, D1 and D 2 should only be A league schools, D3 and D4 should consist of B and C schools, and because we have 6 divisions in our section, D 5&6 would consist of C schools only. Essentially, you only have the ability to move up a division, not backwards.

Thoughts?

[Bud Kilmer]

[TeddyKGB]

what constitutes an A or B school?

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

what constitutes an A or B school?

For example, CW is an A and Bakersfield is a B. 

If a kid can't graduate with todays standards set so low they need to be shipped off to an island.

Most of the good islands are taken.  We can use Kern County until we find something more suitable.  The boneheads will blend right it and never know they're being punished. 

[izne1home]

[Bud Kilmer]

what constitutes an A or B school?

I've been looking for further details on that exact question. The post came last night.

Again, I think it will be subjective decision making unfortunately. Strength of League needs to be a factor imo.

My 2 cents: Based off last years base division placement

All D 1&2 Schools from last years base divisions should be labeled as "A schools". That's 27 teams (correct me if I'm wrong). We need to get back to under .500 can't go to playoffs and fill the brackets up.
All D 3&4 are your "B and C" schools
All D 5&6 are your "lower C and D (because we have six divisions)"

I'm sure there are flaws to this, but what we have now sucks and CIF needs to put some parameters that allow for consequences to a S**t Season

[Bud Kilmer]

[izne1home]

We need to get back to under .500 can't go to playoffs and fill the brackets up.

CIF needs to put some parameters that allow for consequences to a S**t Season

Bud Kilmer for President!

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

I agree with Bud but when in the history of the CIF has the CIF done anything that makes sense? The reality is parents, coaches, kids and school admin want to be able to say that their kids/team when to the playoffs and won a "championship" even if that is a D4 or 5.

[TeddyKGB]

[Lancelot]

First and second place team per conference make playoffs, this makes league games important.
the teams that don't qualify are scheduled a bowl game.   

[Lancelot]

[Bud Kilmer]

I agree with Bud but when in the history of the CIF has the CIF done anything that makes sense? The reality is parents, coaches, kids and school admin want to be able to say that their kids/team when to the playoffs and won a "championship" even if that is a D4 or 5.

Bingo.. and if you look at major campuses across the nation, you'll see the result of this farce.

[Bud Kilmer]

[Cristobal]

First and second place team per conference make playoffs, this makes league games important.
the teams that don't qualify are scheduled a bowl game.   

I thinks this could work, in College the reason it fails is the no one cares about the result but this gives parents and kids a chance to go out "on top". Gives booster and parents the opportunity to put their fingers prints all over it which is what they truly want. Plenty of time for look at me moments for all involved. Us old heads can ignore it and act like the games do not even exists or squeeze in one more tailgate. Win, win!

[Cristobal]

[Darth Backer]

First and second place team per conference make playoffs, this makes league games important.
the teams that don't qualify are scheduled a bowl game.   

This is the root of our problem. Once leagues began to have teams from multiple divisions, this is when our issues started.

[Darth Backer]

[Bronco]

Then don't have teams from different levels in the same conference  - make all conferences be  made of the same division & make the divisions up BEFORE the season - not after. 

[Bronco]

[DonnieBaker1962]

The general rule used to be... If a team wins valley a couple years in a row they get bumped up. If a team never makes playoffs and or never wins playoff games they get dropped down. This system rewarded well run programs. The only teams the benefit from the current disaster is the underperformers.

[DonnieBaker1962]

[Darth Backer]

Then don't have teams from different levels in the same conference  - make all conferences be  made of the same division & make the divisions up BEFORE the season - not after. 

There's a lot of long-standing week 10 rival games that have teams from seperate divisions... not the primary issue but part of it. There's also a proximity component when building most leagues.

[Darth Backer]

[TeddyKGB]

The general rule used to be... If a team wins valley a couple years in a row they get bumped up.

I never understood this its seems like: you're doing too good lets put you up so someone else has a chance to win.

[TeddyKGB]

[Bud Kilmer]

I never understood this its seems like: you're doing too good lets put you up so someone else has a chance to win.

Agreed. Punish good teams for being good and rewarding bad teams by watering down their competition.

[Bud Kilmer]

[DonnieBaker1962]

Agreed. Punish good teams for being good and rewarding bad teams by watering down their competition.

Yes, but at least in that system it allowed teams to win a couple titles. Now if they do well they just bump them up to get smoked.

[DonnieBaker1962]

[Bud Kilmer]

The simple fix is to stop letting teams drop a division. Brackets are botched because mediocre schools/administrators feel entitled to playoffs so they fight to go down a division because they can't win it all. If you don't fit into the playoff picture in your division well better luck next year.

Again, this is never going to happen, but sure would be nice.

[Bud Kilmer]

[RayRea]

They also need to boost win totals to make the playoffs.  I think you only need to win 3 games to be eligible for the playoffs.  I think at the minimum it should be 5.   Very similar to college where you have to win 6 games to be bowl eligible.   This would help eliminate a good percentage of the teams that fill out the bottom of most of the brackets. 

[RayRea]

[TeddyKGB]

I think a minimum of 5 is generous, but I can see a team scheduling a grueling nonleague schedule that does deserve to be in the playoffs. I would say a minimum of .600 or 2nd place in their league.

[TeddyKGB]

[Darth Backer]

I think a minimum of 5 is generous, but I can see a team scheduling a grueling nonleague schedule that does deserve to be in the playoffs. I would say a minimum of .600 or 2nd place in their league.

League placement doesn't make any sense...

[Darth Backer]

[Bud Kilmer]

To all three points, if you stop schools from dropping divisions, you'll naturally fill up each division bracket with the best teams. A full bracket is 16 teams. Typically, there are and should be 16 teams in each division that is .500 or better (Divisions 1-4 at least).

[Bud Kilmer]

[CWClassof2007]

According to the CIF website here's how many schools there are in each section:

Central 101
Oakland 20
Central Coast 143
Sac-Joaquin 198
LA City 128
San Diego 124
North Coast 169
San Francisco 15
Northern 70
Southern 556

Why does the Central Section have 6 divisions in football when the Central Coast & San Diego have 5? The Sac-Joaquin & North Coast have 7 which seems like a lot for them too.

[CWClassof2007]