Homelessness

[izne1home]

Homelessness Is Paralyzing the West

The 9th Circuit has as much as guaranteed the right of anyone to sleep on any public property free from harassment, requiring towns to surrender their public spaces to homeless encampments. 

The dissenting opinions are pretty strong.  The solutions are already difficult, but with this sort of protection, they are almost impossible. 

Somebody posted this on FB.  "We are standing on the precipice of the destruction of the greatest nation the world has ever known. We are standing, right here, right now, transfixed in horror."

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

the issue as I see it is that the idiots that support this kind of nonsense don't see the ripple effect...those filthy sh*tbags that camp on the sidewalk and other public areas deter people from patronizing the businesses in the area, that kills jobs, jobs that create tax revenue for the social programs that those same idiots so strongly want.

[TeddyKGB]

[Timmy Winn]

We need to follow the Japanese playbook. They're at 0% homeless. Unfortunately I think most Americans don't give two craps about homeless. Most of the homeless people you see around Fresno are mentally ill and aren't receiving the treatment or meds needed to address their illness. We could do better very easily but I don't think people care.

[Timmy Winn]

[Timmy Winn]

I know most commenters on here are conservatives. I'm sure most of you know that homelessness EXPLODED in the 80's when Reagan cut subsidies for low income housing and did away with mental institutions and released thousands with severe mental illness into our cities and communities. Did you agree with Reagan at the time and do you think, in retrospect, that his approach was appropriate? I believe his policy created what we see today and had we implemented JFK's approach to homelessness we'd be in a much better place. 

[Timmy Winn]

[TeddyKGB]

Timmy how do you propose we as a society deal with this homeless problem? I agree that a vast majority of them are suffering from some kind of mental disorder but how do you snuff out the problem, because like all issues its not a one thing will fix this issue. I believe that it stems all the way to back to medicating kids at a young age, putting kids on meds when they just need to either reroute their energy into something that interest them or discipline. Not all cases can be fixed like that but my guess is that not every kid medicated needs meds. I'm neither conservative nor liberal and I have also brought up how it was Regan that set this homeless problem in motion. At the same time liberals do not want mentally ill people put away in homes or hospitals. What do we do with them?

[TeddyKGB]

[Timmy Winn]

Timmy how do you propose we as a society deal with this homeless problem? I agree that a vast majority of them are suffering from some kind of mental disorder but how do you snuff out the problem, because like all issues its not a one thing will fix this issue. I believe that it stems all the way to back to medicating kids at a young age, putting kids on meds when they just need to either reroute their energy into something that interest them or discipline. Not all cases can be fixed like that but my guess is that not every kid medicated needs meds. I'm neither conservative nor liberal and I have also brought up how it was Regan that set this homeless problem in motion. At the same time liberals do not want mentally ill people put away in homes or hospitals. What do we do with them?

I'd put them in homes and facilities. I'd medicate those that require it. I'd train those that are able to receive training. I'd round everyone up that is living in parks or on the streets and institutionalize them. Try to give them skills that would enable them to contribute to society. It's not perfect but we saw what happened to SF when they decided to turn the entire city into a soup kitchen.

[Timmy Winn]

[TeddyKGB]

I'd put them in homes and facilities. I'd medicate those that require it. I'd train those that are able to receive training. I'd round everyone up that is living in parks or on the streets and institutionalize them. Try to give them skills that would enable them to contribute to society. It's not perfect but we saw what happened to SF when they decided to turn the entire city into a soup kitchen.

I have no issue with, in fact agree with everything you mentioned. But that is only a band-aid we need to find a way to prevent the issue of them becoming homeless junkies before it happens. I know we won't prevent mental illness but we need to get it diagnosed and treated earlier.

[TeddyKGB]

[Bronco]

Put the crazy ones in the funny farm
Put the Vets in an old soldier home
Put the druggies in prison
Deport the Illegal Aliens
Anybody left - put them on the next freight train out of town - or better yet - the bus to Sacramento.

[Bronco]

[BallGuy]

Put the crazy ones in the funny farm
Put the Vets in an old soldier home
Put the druggies in prison
Deport the Illegal Aliens
Anybody left - put them on the next freight train out of town - or better yet - the bus to Sacramento.

Love the empathy here

[BallGuy]

[eylchamps]

I'd put them in homes and facilities. I'd medicate those that require it. I'd train those that are able to receive training. I'd round everyone up that is living in parks or on the streets and institutionalize them. Try to give them skills that would enable them to contribute to society. It's not perfect but we saw what happened to SF when they decided to turn the entire city into a soup kitchen.

I will add, ship the out of state homeless back to their state. We will not take care of their homeless problem. They need to step up.

but, this will never happen. The courts will never allow it. Free will and the right to live will win in court. I know, it sucks but they have a right to live how they want.

[eylchamps]

[TeddyKGB]

Love the empathy here

how dare he not show the utmost empathy for those that discard disease infested needles in parks, sh*t on the sidewalk, burn down peoples businesses...

[TeddyKGB]

[BallGuy]

how dare he not show the utmost empathy for those that discard disease infested needles in parks, sh*t on the sidewalk, burn down peoples businesses...

All good~just an interesting take. Treating people the same way you'd like to treat the infested needles in parks. I get it, it's a layered and nuanced topic, but these are still human beings. Many of whom need our help. Just difference of philosophies.

[BallGuy]

[izne1home]

I will add, ship the out of state homeless back to their state. We will not take care of their homeless problem. They need to step up.

but, this will never happen. The courts will never allow it. Free will and the right to live will win in court. I know, it sucks but they have a right to live how they want.

I've done a few ride-alongs with Fresno PD in the Southeast and Southwest areas.  Many calls related to homeless vagrants on the streets, stealing, fighting, etc.  He would speak to them like humans, try to figure out what they needed and find them resources, and in a couple of cases, even offered to pay their bus fare back to their hometowns if they were not from Fresno and wanted to go.  I was struck by this big tough guy's humanity. 

He said most cities up and down the 99 corridor will automatically put people on busses if they can find some ID confirming where they are from.  But not Fresno.  If fact, he said he could probably get in trouble for even offering to pay out of his own pocket. 

I'd put them in homes and facilities. I'd medicate those that require it. I'd train those that are able to receive training. I'd round everyone up that is living in parks or on the streets and institutionalize them. Try to give them skills that would enable them to contribute to society. It's not perfect but we saw what happened to SF when they decided to turn the entire city into a soup kitchen.

I agree.

[izne1home]

[BallGuy]

I've done a few ride-alongs with Fresno PD in the Southeast and Southwest areas.  Many calls related to homeless vagrants on the streets, stealing, fighting, etc. He would speak to them like humans, try to figure out what they needed and find them resources, and in a couple of cases, even offered to pay their bus fare back to their hometowns if they were not from Fresno and wanted to go.  I was struck by this big tough guy's humanity. 

He said most cities up and down the 99 corridor will automatically put people on busses if they can find some ID confirming where they are from.  But not Fresno.  If fact, he said he could probably get in trouble for even offering to pay out of his own pocket. 

I agree.

Hero. Love this

[BallGuy]

[Timmy Winn]

Love the empathy here

Our society has little to no empathy for the homeless/mentally ill. It's easy to call someone a dirtbag from your couch in north Fresno, or your trailer in Shafter. I work with people that, on average, live 200% below the poverty line and most suffer from some type of mental illness and transient living situations. They're still people and I'm passionate about helping them. I'll also have family members that suffer with mental illness and it's not pretty but they're still humans and loved by their families. One of the baddest dudes from CW mid 90's football could be found pretty regularly sleeping in Woodward park and wandering around the area. I'd see him around full bull at first and Nees and I'd always buy him something to eat. Good family, good athlete but totally crippled by mental illness. Again, our society does a terrible job with both homelessness and mental illness. And the attitudes you see in this thread illustrates how people perceive mental illness and homelessness. I don't blame them; I just think they're ignorant.

[Timmy Winn]

[TeddyKGB]

I would like to see what percentage of homeless people have a mental illness that isn't attributed to drug use. I can see where a person started their life out behind the proverbial 8-ball if they were born to a drug addict and had zero support, but I am not buying that every homeless person was born with mental illness and thus ended up living on the street and hooked on drugs. I won't lump everyone into the same group, I have no doubt that there are plenty of people that are hooked on drugs and living on the street because of their own choices. It has become chic in our society to blame mental illness and trauma to in an effort to absolve people of any responsibility for their own actions and choices.

Timmy, like most issues in our society once one side of the political spectrum latches on to it the other side immediately takes the opposite view/side/stance. We have right wing nuts that say lock'em up, put them in homes, yet it was the poster boy for the republican party that cut the funding that started this mess. You have the left that says these people need treatment, but you can't lock them up in hospitals its their right to be free. You can't have it both ways.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

If the taxpayers of a city are willing to foot the bill for programs that provide housing, mental health, etc., the city should also have the right to deal with homeless persons who refuse the help.  If a homeless person is either (1) unwilling to accept help, or (2) too far gone to make a competent decision one way or the other, they should be declared vagrants.  They shouldn't have the right to roam the streets aimlessly and bring all the rot, crime, and economic ruin that follows to neighborhoods, local businesses, and property owners.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.  We need to bring some balance back to the system. 

On the other hand, if Timmy is right and people are not willing to put some tax money where their mouths are, then have at it. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

They shouldn't have the right to roam the streets aimlessly and bring all the rot, crime, and economic ruin that follows to neighborhoods, local businesses, and property owners.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.  We need to bring some balance back to the system. 

The is absolutely correct empathy has nothing to do with it; we can't just allow people to sh*t on sidewalks, pass out where they drop, set up camp in front of businesses because they are mentally ill, as a society we continue to bow down in the name of empathy, tolerance and compassion and it has gone too f'n far. I have no issue setting up help or sanatoriums where they can be house, feed, and kept safe and keep the public safe from them. This may not be PC, but the fact is what kind of help is realistic where they will turn things around?

[TeddyKGB]

[Timmy Winn]

If the taxpayers of a city are willing to foot the bill for programs that provide housing, mental health, etc., the city should also have the right to deal with homeless persons who refuse the help.  If a homeless person is either (1) unwilling to accept help, or (2) too far gone to make a competent decision one way or the other, they should be declared vagrants.  They shouldn't have the right to roam the streets aimlessly and bring all the rot, crime, and economic ruin that follows to neighborhoods, local businesses, and property owners.

Empathy has nothing to do with it.  We need to bring some balance back to the system. 

On the other hand, if Timmy is right and people are not willing to put some tax money where their mouths are, then have at it.

I completely agree, except for the empathy part. I think our society has failed these people. Some people want things cleaned up so they don't have to deal with poop on the streets, beggars on the corner, people using drugs openly, etc... while others want things cleaned up because it's important for all people to live with dignity. These guys are sick and aren't living with any dignity. I have some empathy here because I think we could do better.

[Timmy Winn]

[izne1home]

I completely agree, except for the empathy part. I think our society has failed these people. Some people want things cleaned up so they don't have to deal with poop on the streets, beggars on the corner, people using drugs openly, etc... while others want things cleaned up because it's important for all people to live with dignity. These guys are sick and aren't living with any dignity. I have some empathy here because I think we could do better.

I have more empathy than I care to admit.  I am one of those 'born on third base' guys, but I know it and often wonder where I'd be if I'd caught some bad breaks.  There but for the grace of God...  But I also expect people to act with decency, self-respect, and respect for others and their property.   

I meant that regardless of your level of empathy, most reasonable people can agree that the current situation is unacceptable and it will not go away by complaining about it.  It will take a big concerted expensive effort to bring these issues back under control. 

[izne1home]

[Timmy Winn]

I have more empathy than I care to admit.  I am one of those 'born on third base' guys, but I know it and often wonder where I'd be if I'd caught some bad breaks.  There but for the grace of God...  But I also expect people to act with decency, self-respect, and respect for others and their property.   

I meant that regardless of your level of empathy, most reasonable people can agree that the current situation is unacceptable and it will not go away by complaining about it.  It will take a big concerted expensive effort to bring these issues back under control.

Well said. I think most agree that we should do more or better. The only difference we feel is if these people are victims of circumstance /genetics or if they are willfully living this kind of life. You expect people to act with decency and self respect, that's like expecting me to speak fluent Chinese just because I'm in china. Some people are completely incapable of behaving or functioning without some kind of intervention, med or redirection. The 'homeless' CW football stud from the 90's (who you probably know) has a ton of family support but without meds he is completely unable to function. That includes him being decent and acting with any self respect. From an outsider it probably appears that he is making a choice to live this way. But his friends and family know that without controlling his illness (meds) he's a lost cause. Honestly it doesn't matter. What does matter is that we agree more can be done. The rare situation where everyone can feel good about the outcome if we can get the homeless off of the streets.

[Timmy Winn]

[BallGuy]

Well said. I think most agree that we should do more or better. The only difference we feel is if these people are victims of circumstance /genetics or if they are willfully living this kind of life. You expect people to act with decency and self respect, that's like expecting me to speak fluent Chinese just because I'm in china. Some people are completely incapable of behaving or functioning without some kind of intervention, med or redirection. The 'homeless' CW football stud from the 90's (who you probably know) has a ton of family support but without meds he is completely unable to function. That includes him being decent and acting with any self respect. From an outsider it probably appears that he is making a choice to live this way. But his friends and family know that without controlling his illness (meds) he's a lost cause. Honestly it doesn't matter. What does matter is that we agree more can be done. The rare situation where everyone can feel good about the outcome if we can get the homeless off of the streets.

I see it in meetings all the time. It's people from all walks of life. I have NO idea what the splits are between poor choices/mental illness etc. But I know a lot of people who have been homeless, who have a great family support, but like you said, are lost causes without intervention. Al anon also preaches that you separate with love when it comes to family members getting clean. Thought I'd throw in those tidbits, but I appreciate you IZ and Teddy's opinion on this stuff.

My father in law is homeless, and suffers from Bipolar, so this topic hits a little close to home from me. These types of topics I think highlight the differences between sympathy and empathy. I have a ton of empathy towards the homeless. I know I was close to it when I was on the bottle. For many, I don't really have a lot of sympathy towards, as there's a solution. More AA talk thrown in here than I probably should have

[BallGuy]

[TeddyKGB]

I was not born on third base, but I do understand that without the strong influences like my coaches, parents of friends and family with strong morals and values I would not live the life I have. I am way...way WAY more blessed than I deserve. I often wonder when I see a homeless person what their situation was...did they not have support (family or whatever) are they on drugs or what because I understand  that everyone has a story. I have to believe some people just don't care and others really just don't know what they are doing they have lost what we would call a sense of right and wrong. I know this because I have witnessed izne do unspeakable things.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

I know this because I have witnessed izne do unspeakable things.

Third-base guys need strong influences as much, if not more, than first-base guys when life's fastballs come in high and tight and they find out how poorly prepared they are. 

Actually, we were squarely on first base when I was born.  But my parents worked hard to get us in scoring position by the time we entered the job market and always stressed hard work and independence.  There's probably a difference between being born on third-base, and having a good coach who shows you how to advance around the bases.

"Unspeakable" is a relative term.  You're just a little too sensitive sometimes.

[izne1home]

[izne1home]

I see it in meetings all the time. It's people from all walks of life. I have NO idea what the splits are between poor choices/mental illness etc. But I know a lot of people who have been homeless, who have a great family support, but like you said, are lost causes without intervention. Al anon also preaches that you separate with love when it comes to family members getting clean. Thought I'd throw in those tidbits, but I appreciate you IZ and Teddy's opinion on this stuff.

My father in law is homeless, and suffers from Bipolar, so this topic hits a little close to home from me. These types of topics I think highlight the differences between sympathy and empathy. I have a ton of empathy towards the homeless. I know I was close to it when I was on the bottle. For many, I don't really have a lot of sympathy towards, as there's a solution. More AA talk thrown in here than I probably should have

Maybe we shouldn't view their homeless situation as the problem.  It is just a result of some other issue.  Almost one-third of the homeless population are families (or single mothers) with small children.  20% are chronically homeless.  In many cases, mental illness and drug abuse resulted in being homeless, but for others, becoming homeless and helpless led to the drug addiction and mental illness that now holds them down. 

It's a tough nut to crack.  I've spent a small fortune sending Teddy to self-help seminars, Tonny Robbins retreats..., and he's still pretty much a deadbeat. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

I've spent a small fortune sending Teddy to self-help seminars, Tonny Robbins retreats..., and he's still pretty much a deadbeat.

but my golf game has vastly improved, I have helped many a young lady pay her way thru beauty school...all in all money well spent.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

but my golf game has vastly improved, I have helped many a young lady pay her way thru beauty school...all in all money well spent.

Like I've always said, take the wins wherever you find them. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

Like I've always said, take the wins wherever you find them.

is that how the go ugly early philosophy was born?

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

is that how the go ugly early philosophy was born?

No.  That is purely a time-management and cost-benefit strategy.  Sort of like eating at buffets and sharing taxis. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

No.  That is purely a time-management and cost-benefit strategy.

So is the formula something like the lower the BMI & attractiveness the lower the bar and food bill thus the higher the probability of coitus and fellatio? Or
(BMI + A) + $ = score?

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

So is the formula something like the lower the BMI & attractiveness the lower the bar and food bill thus the higher the probability of coitus and fellatio? Or
(BMI + A) + $ = score?

Close, but you have to be able to do the calculations almost intuitively, not on the back of a bar napkin.  Good execution requires split-second decision-making. 

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

not on the back of a bar napkin

some of my best capers have been formulated on the back of a bar napkin...

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

some of my best capers have been formulated on the back of a bar napkin...

By caper, do you mean doing a bunch of 5th-grade math to make sure you can pay your 'date' and still have enough gas money to get home?

[izne1home]

[TeddyKGB]

By caper, do you mean doing a bunch of 5th-grade math to make sure you can pay your 'date' and still have enough gas money to get home?

I am detecting a bit of condescension with sprinkles of judgment... you may act all high and mighty but you forget that I know about the times you have abandoned your "date" at the all night buffet in the Orleans.

[TeddyKGB]

[Bronco]

I was in town  this morning & stopped counting HELP WANTED signs when I got to 100. Do something to help yourself before expecting any free hand-outs from me.  You want empathy? They can come out here and dig dock weed out of my pastures all day & make more than enough to stay at Motel. 6 !

[Bronco]

[BallGuy]

I was in town  this morning & stopped counting HELP WANTED signs when I got to 100. Do something to help yourself before expecting any free hand-outs from me.  You want empathy? They can come out here and dig dock weed out of my pastures all day & make more than enough to stay at Motel. 6 !

Man, I understand what you're saying. And I mean this without any sarcasm or anything. It's freaking awesome that you are in a position to employ folks, and help them improve their livelihood. IMO, and TImmy can speak to it further as he has direct experience with this issue, but this isn't about people simply not working. Albeit, this society needs more "pull yourself up by the bootstraps", but this population is not capable of working. I think you are asking these people to run, when simply put, they need to learn how to crawl.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense, but with how terrible our gov is at spending money and allocating it appropriately, I'd imagine there's more than enough finances to put forth some actual change making strategies. That being said, there's a lot of free resources out there as well. We mentioned that many are drug addicts/alcoholics, when the most effective drug treatment (based on studies) is the 12 step program-which is free.

[BallGuy]

[Timmy Winn]

This isn't an employment problem. There are plenty of jobs if you are able to and want to work. This is a mental health problem. It's not being treated and they can't function without meds intervention and treatment. We have a problem to solve before we even get to employment issues. Be honest would you bring the homeless guys who roam around Woodward park to your home to do work? In theory maybe you'd like to think you would, but I wouldn't and I don't believe you would either. That's not safe. They're crazy. They need help. That's why they're homeless.

[Timmy Winn]

[Timmy Winn]

Maybe we shouldn't view their homeless situation as the problem.  It is just a result of some other issue.  Almost one-third of the homeless population are families (or single mothers) with small children.  20% are chronically homeless.  In many cases, mental illness and drug abuse resulted in being homeless, but for others, becoming homeless and helpless led to the drug addiction and mental illness that now holds them down. 

It's a tough nut to crack.  I've spent a small fortune sending Teddy to self-help seminars, Tonny Robbins retreats..., and he's still pretty much a deadbeat.

Amen...

[Timmy Winn]

[BallGuy]

This isn't an employment problem. There are plenty of jobs if you are able to and want to work. This is a mental health problem. It's not being treated and they can't function without meds intervention and treatment. We have a problem to solve before we even get to employment issues. Be honest would you bring the homeless guys who roam around Woodward park to your home to do work? In theory maybe you'd like to think you would, but I wouldn't and I don't believe you would either. That's not safe. They're crazy. They need help. That's why they're homeless.

This 1,000%

[BallGuy]

[TeddyKGB]

Ball I believe that the government will never allot funds to help this issue because the people who have real influence are not affected by this problem. 1 if they have family members with mental issues they have access to either monitored care or medication and lawyers that will keep them out of jail.

Timmy you are far more informed on this subject that I, but to me it seems that either (if possible) prevention and or intervention much earlier would make more sense. I know a guy, like we all do, that is now on the street he's a drug addict self induced I grew up with this guy so the mental problems now are from the drug use. I have to believe until shown otherwise that much of this mental illness can be traced and attributed so some factor(s) and that's what the focus should be on.

[TeddyKGB]

[Timmy Winn]

Ball I believe that the government will never allot funds to help this issue because the people who have real influence are not affected by this problem. 1 if they have family members with mental issues they have access to either monitored care or medication and lawyers that will keep them out of jail.

Timmy you are far more informed on this subject that I, but to me it seems that either (if possible) prevention and or intervention much earlier would make more sense. I know a guy, like we all do, that is now on the street he's a drug addict self induced I grew up with this guy so the mental problems now are from the drug use. I have to believe until shown otherwise that much of this mental illness can be traced and attributed so some factor(s) and that's what the focus should be on.

You don't know that mental illness wasn't bubbling under the surface. You don't know that drug use induced his issues. What you do know is that you know someone who now shows obvious signs of mental illness and self medicates with drugs. Schizophrenia often rears its head in our mid 20's. You wouldn't know on the surface that there are issues until they become obvious. But the truth is your friend probably struggled before they tried to self medicate and then the downward spiral began. I do agree that intervention should start as soon as possible and gives us the best chance to treat these guys and give them some dignity and a chance and a productive life where they can contribute to society rather than be viewed as a pariah.

[Timmy Winn]

[izne1home]

Honest question.  Have the number of crazy people roaming the streets drastically increased, and if so, why?  Maybe we just did a better job of housing those in need of help in the past and keeping them out of the public eye, but I doubt it.

Same thing with PTSD.  We get plenty of soldiers coming home after one War on Terror tour who really struggle.  The soldiers who fought in WW2 should all suffer from PTSD, but it seems they all came home and went to work. 

Has something changed?  Do we coddle mental illness, or would a sharp General Patton slap and pep talk at a younger age work better?  I know he took some heat, but we won the war. 

PS:  To Timmy's point about self-medicating, most drug addicts have dual diagnoses and are trapped in a downward spiral.  To my question above, if we intervene at an earlier point and find a diagnosis, do we then let that diagnosis define that child for the rest of his/her life, which can be crippling?  Or do we treat it in a way that does not create a dependent?  I don't know, but whatever we are doing now is not working.

If it were up to me, our kids need a little more George Patton and a little less safe-space.  But that's just me...

[izne1home]

[Timmy Winn]

Honest question.  Have the number of crazy people roaming the streets drastically increased, and if so, why?  Maybe we just did a better job of housing those in need of help in the past and keeping them out of the public eye, but I doubt it.

Same thing with PTSD.  We get plenty of soldiers coming home after one War on Terror tour who really struggle.  The soldiers who fought in WW2 should all suffer from PTSD, but it seems they all came home and went to work. 

Has something changed?  Do we coddle mental illness, or would a sharp General Patton slap and pep talk at a younger age work better?  I know he took some heat, but we won the war. 

PS:  To Timmy's point about self-medicating, most drug addicts have dual diagnoses and are trapped in a downward spiral.  To my question above, if we intervene at an earlier point and find a diagnosis, do we then let that diagnosis define that child for the rest of his/her life, which can be crippling?  Or do we treat it in a way that does not create a dependent?  I don't know, but whatever we are doing now is not working.

If it were up to me, our kids need a little more George Patton and a little less safe-space.  But that's just me...

Absolutely has increased. See the post about Reagan. He de-institutionalized people that needed institutions. We now have NO place for these guys to go. That's why you see more.
I challenge you to drive past the poverello house tonight and tell me if you think we coddle mental illness. We disregard mental illness and act like we need more George Patton. Sounds good to boomers but it's far from a solution. It's like expecting someone to speak a foreign language without training them and then being tough on them when they can't conform to your demands. They need intervention, not coddling. But to boomers I think those sound like the same thing. They are not. Over half a million soldiers from ww2 came back with PTSD. Over 40% of medical discharges from the military during ww2 was for psychological issues (ptsd mostly). The difference is when they came home there was a social support system to give these guys access to resources they need. Reagan killed that now here we are. I work mostly with ww2 vets and ptsd is real and prevalent with this group. You should see how the SE Asians in this demo are effected by PTSD from the secret war. Boomers are not immune to ptsd and mental illness, quite opposite actually. There are and we're better support systems in place for this group. It's the young mentally ill that we are letting die on the vine.

[Timmy Winn]

[BallGuy]

Honest question.  Have the number of crazy people roaming the streets drastically increased, and if so, why?  Maybe we just did a better job of housing those in need of help in the past and keeping them out of the public eye, but I doubt it.

Same thing with PTSD.  We get plenty of soldiers coming home after one War on Terror tour who really struggle.  The soldiers who fought in WW2 should all suffer from PTSD, but it seems they all came home and went to work. 

Has something changed?  Do we coddle mental illness, or would a sharp General Patton slap and pep talk at a younger age work better?  I know he took some heat, but we won the war. 

PS:  To Timmy's point about self-medicating, most drug addicts have dual diagnoses and are trapped in a downward spiral.  To my question above, if we intervene at an earlier point and find a diagnosis, do we then let that diagnosis define that child for the rest of his/her life, which can be crippling? Or do we treat it in a way that does not create a dependent?  I don't know, but whatever we are doing now is not working.

If it were up to me, our kids need a little more George Patton and a little less safe-space.  But that's just me...

So many people in society view mental illness as a stigma, versus any other condition. Any time you let a label define you, it's a slippery slope. Whether it's depression, schitzophrenia, bipolar, jock, mathlete, etc.  If we are talking about early intervention (which we should be) there has to be a system in place to destigmatize these issues.  Instead, we have people that  hide it, or run from it. My FIL is a "cowboy" so he refuses to go back to the doctor and get on meds. I'm not sure if that's a large part of the mental illness, but we can only go off of experience, and that's what I've seen.

[BallGuy]

[izne1home]

It's the young mentally ill that we are letting die on the vine.

That is the group I was referring to with my coddling question.  Some might argue that our liberal subjective ideology is promoting mental illness at a young age.  When they grow up and become nuisances to society, we put them on the streets to fend for themselves.

Also, your explanation about the WW2 PTSD made sense.  Those guys all came home heroes.  Not so much anymore. 

[izne1home]

[Timmy Winn]

That is the group I was referring to with my coddling question.  Some might argue that our liberal subjective ideology is promoting mental illness at a young age.  When they grow up and become nuisances to society, we put them on the streets to fend for themselves.

Also, your explanation about the WW2 PTSD made sense.  Those guys all came home heroes.  Not so much anymore.

I think the only young group we coddle are the mediocre Buchanan athletes that are 'stars' in high school and then flop afterwards. They are told by their parents how great they are and then cold hard reality hits and they realize they are only mediocre. I had to get a Buchanan shot into this discussion.
In seriousness though, what kind of liberal ideology is promoting mental illness?

[Timmy Winn]

[izne1home]

I think the only young group we coddle are the mediocre Buchanan athletes that are 'stars' in high school and then flop afterwards. They are told by their parents how great they are and then cold hard reality hits and they realize they are only mediocre. I had to get a Buchanan shot into this discussion.
In seriousness though, what kind of liberal ideology is promoting mental illness?

For starters, there is no longer any objective truth.  If you want to be a girl, you can be a girl.  If Johnny wants to grow his hair out and wear dresses to school, knock yourself out.  If you and your 10-year-old best friend want to know how lesbians have sex, just go to the library where gay sex is celebrated.  We are dealing with kids who are wholly unable to process this sort of information, and we are programming them to hit a wall. I think we are loading the pipeline for mental illness, depression, suicide, and a whole new generation of sidewalk crappers. 

I was raised with some pretty black-and-white rules, and I understood the consequences of my actions.  I was a boy and my world didn't extend much farther than my parents allowed it to.  If I went out of bounds or asked a stupid question, there was a price to pay.

Look at me now!

[izne1home]

[Timmy Winn]

For starters, there is no longer any objective truth.  If you want to be a girl, you can be a girl.  If Johnny wants to grow his hair out and wear dresses to school, knock yourself out.  If you and your 10-year-old best friend want to know how lesbians have sex, just go to the library where gay sex is celebrated.  We are dealing with kids who are wholly unable to process this sort of information, and we are programming them to hit a wall. I think we are loading the pipeline for mental illness, depression, suicide, and a whole new generation of sidewalk crappers. 

I was raised with some pretty black-and-white rules, and I understood the consequences of my actions.  I was a boy and my world didn't extend much farther than my parents allowed it to.  If I went out of bounds or asked a stupid question, there was a price to pay.

Look at me now!

I won't argue about the trans issues. I don't get that either. To me that is mental illness but that's another conversation.
10 year olds aren't learning about lesbians at the public library. They're online watching videos. What library do you go to that celebrates gay sex?
You have the ability to make good points but then you throw out these kind of statements that make you and your opinion look antiquated. Stay away from the untrue Fox News conservative talking points, you've got a good mind yourself and don't need to resort to their lowest common denominator approach. This is nuanced and I think you know better. No one walks into a public library straight and walks out gay because gay sex is celebrated there. That's crazier than anything else said in this discussion.
Also I think your black and white upbringing plays into this big time. Let's be honest the world isn't black and white and raising a child nowadays with that approach sets them up for failure and disappointment. It also makes sense on why your outlook is black and white...it's not your fault you were raised to ignore nuance and pick a definitive side. Unfortunately that's not how our world works anymore. Nuance is real.

[Timmy Winn]

[TeddyKGB]

I don't know that I believe the "It's the young mentally ill that we are letting die on the vine." I believe much of the issues with the younger group, not boomers as is so trendy to say now, but the millienial and younger is that they never had to deal with adversity. I am sure there are plenty of cases where there are chemical imbalances but when kids are conditioned to believe that they are the center of the family structure and they are never allowed to deal with failure and sheltered from it they have not developed a coping mechanism for when life gets tough. It has nothing to do with just being tough it has to do with the way the person was conditioned to perceive situations. Then you have the other side of that, where parents are quick to medicate their kids no talking, no trying to figure out what is causing the problem instead right to the pills. That's not to say there is no place for meds but I don't believe they should be the first option that is more about the money.

[TeddyKGB]

[izne1home]

I won't argue about the trans issues. I don't get that either. To me that is mental illness but that's another conversation.
10 year olds aren't learning about lesbians at the public library. They're online watching videos. What library do you go to that celebrates gay sex?
You have the ability to make good points but then you throw out these kind of statements that make you and your opinion look antiquated. Stay away from the untrue Fox News conservative talking points, you've got a good mind yourself and don't need to resort to their lowest common denominator approach. This is nuanced and I think you know better. No one walks into a public library straight and walks out gay because gay sex is celebrated there. That's crazier than anything else said in this discussion.
Also I think your black and white upbringing plays into this big time. Let's be honest the world isn't black and white and raising a child nowadays with that approach sets them up for failure and disappointment. It also makes sense on why your outlook is black and white...it's not your fault you were raised to ignore nuance and pick a definitive side. Unfortunately that's not how our world works anymore. Nuance is real.

Forgive my occasional Fox News (forbidden to watch in my house) comments.  As a favor to this site's owner, I occasionally pepper my posts with lowest-common-denominator talking points to keep the south valley brethren engaged.   

There is a lot of discussion about the types of material schools are offering to young children.  School districts, along with many others, have found it easier to appease the LGBTQ community with material affirming and normalizing alternative lifestyles, which we can all agree are well beyond a child's ability to understand. 

I wasn't suggesting that Johnny would go gay, but as you pointed out, they are already bombarded with sexual material.  Compounding the confusion that stems from a porn addiction with material that normalizes that behavior, is a bad combination.  That's a little different from flipping through a Hustler or watching porn on your phone, knowing you'll catch hell if you're caught.

In my humble opinion, having raised kids and now grandkids who have stumbled hard along the way, we need to give our kids the best shot possible and prepare them for the real world.  I always talk about the old days of football, when you had to almost paralyze someone to draw a personal foul, earn your spot in the playoffs, and would never dream of transferring to another school for selfish reasons. 

Part of the outdated philosophy is correcting your children when they veer off the path you have set out for them as their parents (that's part of the job).  I gave my kids a pretty wide berth, but there are times when course corrections are needed.  Sometimes a gentle nudge is all it takes, and other times you must resort to tough love.  I might sound black and white, but my kids would tell you differently.  I understand all about nuance - I've learned the hard way, but those shades of grey still exist between the edges of black and white. 

Part of a parent's job is to show your children where the edges of black and white exist.  They're incapable of setting them themselves, and constantly running out of bounds can take a toll.  Just like a football field, there is plenty of room to run.  If it weren't for the referees and white chalk, the game would quickly turn to chaos.  Not much different with life.

[izne1home]

[Timmy Winn]

Forgive my occasional Fox News (forbidden to watch in my house) comments.  As a favor to this site's owner, I occasionally pepper my posts with lowest-common-denominator talking points to keep the south valley brethren engaged.   

There is a lot of discussion about the types of material schools are offering to young children.  School districts, along with many others, have found it easier to appease the LGBTQ community with material affirming and normalizing alternative lifestyles, which we can all agree are well beyond a child's ability to understand. 

I wasn't suggesting that Johnny would go gay, but as you pointed out, they are already bombarded with sexual material.  Compounding the confusion that stems from a porn addiction with material that normalizes that behavior, is a bad combination.  That's a little different from flipping through a Hustler or watching porn on your phone, knowing you'll catch hell if you're caught.

In my humble opinion, having raised kids and now grandkids who have stumbled hard along the way, we need to give our kids the best shot possible and prepare them for the real world.  I always talk about the old days of football, when you had to almost paralyze someone to draw a personal foul, earn your spot in the playoffs, and would never dream of transferring to another school for selfish reasons. 

Part of the outdated philosophy is correcting your children when they veer off the path you have set out for them as their parents (that's part of the job).  I gave my kids a pretty wide berth, but there are times when course corrections are needed.  Sometimes a gentle nudge is all it takes, and other times you must resort to tough love.  I might sound black and white, but my kids would tell you differently.  I understand all about nuance - I've learned the hard way, but those shades of grey still exist between the edges of black and white. 

Part of a parent's job is to show your children where the edges of black and white exist.  They're incapable of setting them themselves, and constantly running out of bounds can take a toll.  Just like a football field, there is plenty of room to run.  If it weren't for the referees and white chalk, the game would quickly turn to chaos.  Not much different with life.

You sound like a good parent and even better grandparent(easier job!). Kids need boundaries and there is a lot we can agree on. The other stuff is just there to give us something to talk about. The takeaway I get from this is that all of us want us to take a different approach with how we address homelessness and I think it's clear that there are factors outside of employment and will that factor into this. I think we all agree they need help. I also think we're all pretty skeptical that they will actually get any help.

[Timmy Winn]

[BallGuy]

I don't know that I believe the "It's the young mentally ill that we are letting die on the vine." I believe much of the issues with the younger group, not boomers as is so trendy to say now, but the millienial and younger is that they never had to deal with adversity. I am sure there are plenty of cases where there are chemical imbalances but when kids are conditioned to believe that they are the center of the family structure and they are never allowed to deal with failure and sheltered from it they have not developed a coping mechanism for when life gets tough. It has nothing to do with just being tough it has to do with the way the person was conditioned to perceive situations. Then you have the other side of that, where parents are quick to medicate their kids no talking, no trying to figure out what is causing the problem instead right to the pills. That's not to say there is no place for meds but I don't believe they should be the first option that is more about the money.

It is kinda funny that that is the whole point to evolution. Not disagreeing, quite the opposite. But my generation is softer than my dads. Much like my dad's was softer than his. So on and so forth. Cavemen would complain about how their kids no longer have to slay sabortooths (saborteeth?). There's a book called Sapiens that talks about this. Teddy we've talked about this before, but early intervention and exposing kids to a variety of extracurriculars I think would go a long way. I know baseball taught me a lot about perseverance and accountability.

But yes, a step by step process would be great. IE. Counselor then therapist, they Psychiatrist etc.

[BallGuy]