School Shootings

[BallGuy]

We also feign outrage. Saw a post yesterday that said the only thing that's changed since Sandyhook, is that we have "run, hide, fight" training." For intents and purposes we have made our children in charge of their own safety. EYL-all good points. So much went wrong in this case. Clearly, stuff is not working in the US. Our elected officials can give a sh*t because they are busy golfing or riding their free pelotons knowing that we as a public will be outraged for two weeks, and then forget all about it. It's -ing sick.

Going back to gun laws, and I'd like opinions on this (no I'm not a crazy lib, I just like to play one on here). Would it be possible to make it illegal to have guns without a purpose? IE. hunting license, with active plans and proof of those plans to hunt during xyz season. Limit the amount of guns you can have on your property for safety. IE two max per household, anything over that needs to be kept in storage somewhere off your residence. Stuff like that? In terms of pragmatism, limiting access to guns may help the situations without infringing on people's freedoms. Or am I living in a fantasy land?

[o-line]

I think the question you are asking then is what are the things we can do without causing a greater evil. 180 day waiting period, so future gun owner can attend proper classes provided by the department of fish and game or law enforcement , during which time a full background check can be preformed by local government and state officials. You can't buy a beer until you are 21 but you can buy two assault rifles with no problems what so ever. Not saying 21 years of age makes you more mature than an 18 year old, but at least it's a few more years to hope some common sense has prevailed in those young minds. You have to register your cars every year, but you don't have to register your guns. Once again if you feel the need to own 40 assault rifles then the state and local law enforcement need to know, just as if you own only one handgun law enforcement needs to know. I imagine if a officer pulls some one over they could run plates see the information they already get, but also see if this person is a legal gun owner.

These are just a few ideas that maybe a little bothersome to most , but I don't give up my guns and just maybe my local government and state agencies prevent one less child from having to fear for their lives, and the one less parent of having to live that same nightmare of losing a child to our lack of doing anything, but offering more thoughts and prayers. I'm sure there are plenty of parents in whom have lost children to gun violence at school that would rather have solutions then thoughts and prayers.

[Coastfan]

Short answer Ball, yes, that is a fantasy.

The Second Amendment to the US Constitution clearly states that United States citizens have the right to bear arms: "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So, what you wrote would infringe upon a person's right to keep and bear. The Supreme Court most recently wrote 5-4 majority opinions on the state attempting to stop the sale of handguns in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and the right for individuals to keep firearms in their home for protection in McDonald v. Chicago (2010).

As soon as any piece of legislation goes towards curtailing, limiting, or prohibiting the legal sale of firearms, it is going to be fought in the courts.

[izne1home]

I think the question you are asking then is what are the things we can do without causing a greater evil. 180 day waiting period, so future gun owner can attend proper classes provided by the department of fish and game or law enforcement , during which time a full background check can be preformed by local government and state officials.

Also so they can 'cool off' if they are having any fantasizes about how they intend to use those guns.  But it seems the NRA has data to refute almost everything:  https://www.nraila.org/get-the-facts/waiting-periods/

The 2nd Amendment prohibition on 'infringements' is a tough hurdle to clear.  Exactly like the left is crying that overturning Roe v Wade will put other personal freedoms at stake, the gun advocates take the position that any infringement will be a slippery slope towards more substantial infringements.  Looks like we are captives to our freedoms. 

Again, we have around 400,000,000 guns in circulation.  We can go in circles arguing about gun control, but maybe we should shift the focus to self-defense, and defending the lives of our most vulnerable.  Gun control debates equal votes - which is why it is all we hear.  But evil isn't going anywhere, and it will use whatever it can get its hands on and take the path of least resistance.  Making 'assault rifles' harder to acquire only scratches the surface, but it sure makes a lot of grandstanding politicians look good and allows us to feel like we've done something.

[Coastfan]

But evil isn't going anywhere, and it will use whatever it can get its hands on and take the path of least resistance.  Making 'assault rifles' harder to acquire only scratches the surface, but it sure makes a lot of grandstanding politicians look good and allows us to feel like we've done something.

Amen!

[eylchamps]

Let me ask this here: Who would vote yes to a proposition that would increase our state and local taxes to get more protection?
how would you vote? if you vote no, be honest about it and tell us how to make schools more secure without spending money
I would vote yes
call me a liberal but how many more kids need to die

[izne1home]

Yes, and I already get taxed to death. 

[BallGuy]

Also so they can 'cool off' if they are having any fantasizes about how they intend to use those guns.  But it seems the NRA has data to refute almost everything:  https://www.nraila.org/get-the-facts/waiting-periods/

The 2nd Amendment prohibition on 'infringements' is a tough hurdle to clear.  Exactly like the left is crying that overturning Roe v Wade will put other personal freedoms at stake, the gun advocates take the position that any infringement will be a slippery slope towards more substantial infringements.  Looks like we are captives to our freedoms. 

Again, we have around 400,000,000 guns in circulation.  We can go in circles arguing about gun control, but maybe we should shift the focus to self-defense, and defending the lives of our most vulnerable.  Gun control debates equal votes - which is why it is all we hear.  But evil isn't going anywhere, and it will use whatever it can get its hands on and take the path of least resistance.  Making 'assault rifles' harder to acquire only scratches the surface, but it sure makes a lot of grandstanding politicians look good and allows us to feel like we've done something.

I mean, I can't argue with any of this. You're absolutely right.

But why and how is it possible that America has almost infinitely more school shootings than any other country? They have mental illness, absentee parents, socioeconomic disadvantages too. I truly don't know the answer to this. But-if the answer is the access that we have to guns, then it's time to start looking at taking away or "infringing" on the right to bear arm. The shift of focus to self-defense would be a good measure of reactive actions, but it's still just a band aid.

[eylchamps]

I just read the the governor of Texas, in April, cut 300 million for mental health services. I will leave this here for processing.

[izne1home]

I mean, I can't argue with any of this. You're absolutely right.

But why and how is it possible that America has almost infinitely more school shootings than any other country? They have mental illness, absentee parents, socioeconomic disadvantages too. I truly don't know the answer to this. But-if the answer is the access that we have to guns, then it's time to start looking at taking away or "infringing" on the right to bear arm. The shift of focus to self-defense would be a good measure of reactive actions, but it's still just a band aid.

The great melting-pot has its disadvantages.  Countries with more homogeneous populations do not have our problems. 

With 400,000,000 guns in circulation, the reality is that we'd better stock up on bandaids. 

I just read the the governor of Texas, in April, cut 300 million for mental health services. I will leave this here for processing.

These shooters probably appear to be mentally stable right up until they aren't.  I heard an FBI profiler on TV this morning saying the mental health indicators of these mass shooters are so minute that they would be difficult to identify.  In hindsight, they look obvious.  To be effective, a mental health system would require that a parent, friend, school district..., report suspicious behaviour to the state.  That's great, until it's your kid who gets caught in the system for saying something stupid.

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but what does mental health services accomplish for mentally ill people who don't realize they are sick or don't want to get well?  Homeless people are the best example.  You cannot get them off the street by offering them a room, because they are mentally ill and do what mentally ill people do if left unchecked.  Unless you restrict their freedoms by imposing a conservatorship, mentally ill people remain mentally ill.  Another personal freedom we must live with.  The good news is people who are that mentally ill rarely pull off a mass murder. 

[Coastfan]

Let me ask this here: Who would vote yes to a proposition that would increase our state and local taxes to get more protection?
how would you vote? if you vote no, be honest about it and tell us how to make schools more secure without spending money
I would vote yes
call me a liberal but how many more kids need to die

I mean, it's a difficult question to just say yes or no to. What does the protection look like? How are schools redesigned to make them more protective? Is there a government agency involved (whether at the state or local level) that inspects every school to get each/every school to some sort of standard? Without knowing exactly how each local school is going to utilize the new monies to make the school "safer" it is difficult to say, yes, I would give more money to local schools to improve their safety.

[tru guru]

The great melting-pot has its disadvantages.  Countries with more homogeneous populations do not have our problems. 

With 400,000,000 guns in circulation, the reality is that we'd better stock up on bandaids. 

These shooters probably appear to be mentally stable right up until they aren't.  I heard an FBI profiler on TV this morning saying the mental health indicators of these mass shooters are so minute that they would be difficult to identify.  In hindsight, they look obvious.  To be effective, a mental health system would require that a parent, friend, school district..., report suspicious behaviour to the state.  That's great, until it's your kid who gets caught in the system for saying something stupid.

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but what does mental health services accomplish for mentally ill people who don't realize they are sick or don't want to get well?  Homeless people are the best example.  You cannot get them off the street by offering them a room, because they are mentally ill and do what mentally ill people do if left unchecked.  Unless you restrict their freedoms by imposing a conservatorship, mentally ill people remain mentally ill.  Another personal freedom we must live with.  The good news is people who are that mentally ill rarely pull off a mass murder.

Interesting point here.

[izne1home]

With projected revenues in excess of $1Billion at FUSD, and $500Million at CUSD, I'm sure they could find some money for quick high-priority security measures without taking it to a vote.

Interesting point here.

https://www.jewishworldreview.com/0816/hanson082516.php3

[tru guru]

With projected revenues in excess of $1Billion at FUSD, and $500Million at CUSD, I'm sure they could find some money for quick high-priority security measures without taking it to a vote.

https://www.jewishworldreview.com/0816/hanson082516.php3

I've personally never bought into the whole "diversity is our strength argument".  I'm more of the opinion that our strength is a pursuit of common ideals, which are not so common any longer.  The boat doesn't go too far upstream when a whole bunch of people are rowing in different directions.

[izne1home]

I've personally never bought into the whole "diversity is our strength argument".  I'm more of the opinion that our strength is a pursuit of common ideals, which are not so common any longer.  The boat doesn't go too far upstream when a whole bunch of people are rowing in different directions.

For starters, we need to review the 'everybody gets an oar' rule. 

[izne1home]

Hindsight is 20/20, but I'd sure hate to be the chief that determined it was a barricade incident.  He must have assumed the kids in the room were already dead, or that an attack would prompt him to kill more.

I heard one commentator say the active shooter protocol followed in Texas is to stack up, go to the shooter, and kill him.  The 19 police officers in the hall had that training and should have disregarded the command.   

From the teacher propping the otherwise locked security door open twice, to the safety officer driving right by the shooter in the parking lot, and the decision to wait to get a key from the janitor to engage the shooter, the whole debate about soft targets and leaving our children vulnerable moves to a whole new level.  If we are content to let them be sitting ducks while we debate background checks and gun control, then we need to do better when evil comes calling. 

 

[taysdad]

What'd we do after 9/11? Secured the cockpits. We need to secure our schools. Should be the DOEs sole job right now. Every dime should go to securing the schools. We've been printing and spending left and right, so let's give to the schools. This is 7 or so years old but making the rounds on facebook last couple days. 400k in 2015. Every school in America should have something like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcpsnrxHdCc

My kid's school in Utah is fairly secure in terms of gaining access inside. Front door opens, then have to be buzzed into the office. Then buzzed out of the office to get into the school. All exterior doors have badge readers that teachers have to scan to get in after recess. But the play ground area is wide open. Chain link fencing to an extent runs the length of the field, but last 50 or so feet are unsecure. Someone can walk right onto the playground area off the street. Would definitely like to see the rest of it fenced.

[izne1home]

The need to provide safe environments for our children is so compelling and obvious, it makes you wonder what the hesitation is.  It defies logic on every level. 

Maybe it's the fact that nuts killing children is the most expedient way to accomplish gun control.  It's the left's trump card and they aren't about to give it up by protecting the sitting ducks.  Under their policies, these kids are lucky to have survived the abortionist in the first place, so sacrificing them for the cause is acceptable. 

Even if much stricter (and effective) gun control legislation is passed, it would take many years to dial down the risk to our children.  There is absolutely no reason to wait, unless you have a larger agenda. 

[BallGuy]

Couple things-I think it comes as no surprise that I hate Trump, but this is exactly how people (celebrities) like him get voted into office. The ideals that politicians are in office for us is just a farce. If we can't trust our politicians to come together for change, then perhaps it's another celebrity that doesn't have the political history to be in bed with lobbyists should have another shot. There are solutions that can be done that can be bipartisan, but they are too busy measuring dicks to actually accomplish anything. We've talked about how things may or may not work, but it's time to do something, and see if it makes a difference.

Second thing (or third or fourth whatever) am I alone in seeing the difference between Sandyhook and Uvalde? After Sandyhook it seemed like the whole country was sad then motivated that NOW is the time to make change. Nothing happened. And now after Uvalde, the reaction seems to be just sad, followed by hopelessness. It's not where we should be as a nation.

[izne1home]

...but it's time to do something, and see if it makes a difference.

Almost everybody is desperate to do something.  Unfortunately, the first victims of any gun control measures are the law-abiding citizens.  Most of them are willing to make concessions as long as they are based in fact with some nexus to the real problem.  Most people are not, however, willing to jeopardize their constitutional rights in a 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' exercise in futility. 

So far, the left hasn't been able to get that focused because they have a larger agenda.  As the party of helpless victims, they never let a tragedy go to waste. 

But..., assuming we implemented every misguided law the left has proposed, it would take years to know whether it actually results in safety for our children.  I know you hate Trump, but his comments at the NRA convention were on point. 

"While we don't yet know enough about this week's killing, we know there are many things we must do," he said. "We need to drastically change our approach to mental health. There are always so many warning signs. Almost all of these disfigured minds share the same profile."

"Teachers, parents, school officials, and community members need to be recognizing and addressing these alarm bells promptly and very, very aggressively," he continued. "And our school discipline systems, instead of making excuses and continually turning a blind eye, need to confront bad behavior head on and quickly. And clearly we need to make it far easier to confine the violent and mentally deranged into mental institutions."

"If the United States has $40 billion to send to Ukraine, we should be able to do whatever it takes to keep our children safe at home," Trump said. "We spent trillions in Iraq, trillions in Afghanistan, and got nothing. Before we nation-build the rest of the world, we should be building safe schools for our own children in our own nation. Right?"

 

[izne1home]